quote:

Originally posted by Hollie Holland:
Because amongst each other girls tend to make eachother paranoid about it.

Hooray! I agree 100% !! With a wife and two daughters (now grown up) I know about those pressures only too well.

It is amazing how women will not listen to men on this topic. I can understand them ignoring my opinion (after all I am only one person), but when confronted by groups of men admiring their figures women still do not believe them.

Fashion magazines, of course, are in business to make women feel bad about themselves.

There is no profit in telling the truth, which has been revealed by survey after survey, that the average man's ideal is very close to the average woman (with very minor differences, e.g. a slightly lower waist/hip ratio.

But women, unpaid, constantly inflict anguish on each other. Why!! (And so agressively too I have noticed).

I can only imagine it is part of the race to attract the best men. The plan is to make rival women feel so bad they cancel themselves out of the race. However in shooting down their rivals women shoot themselves too!

Maybe this is not a good explanation - it is the only one I have been able to come up with so far.

I remember a (female) friend years ago. She was on the plump side, though not obese, and always trying out slimming diets.

Every now and again she would relapse and go back to her old eating habits. Eventually she realised that just as many men paid her attention when she was relatively fat as when she was relatively thin. In fact they used to be calling on her all the time and even following here around to the extent of becoming a nuisance(similar to the men Marrena described).

She could not understand it, even though the reason was obvious to all the men who knew her. Even I could understand although not personally attracted to her.

Her figure was always within acceptable limits, whether fat or thin. She obviously loved life, was lusty and ambitious, and a delight to spend time with.

She asked, "Why do I bother dieting?", and at last gave up!

quote:

Originally posted by Dandelion:
I can only imagine it is part of the race to attract the best men. The plan is to make rival women feel so bad they cancel themselves out of the race. However in shooting down their rivals women shoot themselves too!

Maybe this is not a good explanation - it is the only one I have been able to come up with so far.

Well, we think we do it to look attractive for men. But I don't think thats the point, I think women like to impress the competition more than men.

For example: why would women always want to follow the latest fashion trends? Men certainly don't notice the diffrence between heels from Prada and H&M? They don't even notice if your shoes or clothing are latest-season, or just a color that was cool 3 years ago, but now not that hot anymore!

Sometimes girls wear what men consider hideous. Like leggings, (I wouldn't want to be found dead in a legging) tunics, high waist dresses that make girls look pregnant, and those high heels with ties. Guys seem to hate that but many girls still wear it. So who are we keeping up the looks for?

Maybe other man do, but every man I know can not tell the diffrence. Unless they are gay. My BF regularly sais things like: "Why are you wearing such a nice shirt today, I told you to wear old clothes!" And I'm like "This ís old!" He just likes whatever he likes, no matter when or where the shirt was bought. But he's really the worst guy I've ever met concerming the fashion part. He will even sometimes combine colors in a very bad way, like a forest-green blouse with grey jeans, or buy a colbert that looks like a Scottish skirt and still look proud when he walks in and sais: "This one was for sale and I got a uge discount." (At which point I start thinking about how to tell my happy BF there was a very good reason for the discount. Most of the time he already knows I absolutely hate it within 3 seconds because of the look on my face)

Point is; girls don't dress up for boys, girls dress up for girls. And girls want the be taller and slimmer than other girls, so we diet to show of our butts- at other girls. Because boys... simply don't seem to care about sizing. (I have to say, in highschool I was convinced every boy wanted a slim girl, but maybe thats part of media-pressure and image) Its the only thing I can think of, but its really ironic.

I really think the key is in parents. Parents can give teenage girls great confidence and its harder to become a victim of fashion and the slimnessrace when you have confidence in yourself. I really like the Dove 'real beauty' and self-esteem campaign? Its a bit old, but I used it during a project in college and I got really good responses. Here some links:

Dove evolution
Dove 'Onslaught'

quote:

Originally posted by Hollie Holland:
I don't know what did it, but the dizziness is pretty much gone.

I'm glad you are feeling better Hollie, but please see a doctor if you keep feeling dizzy. That could be lots of things and it may be easy and important to fix. Basic blood tests may shed light on the subject.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Oh!!,

quote:

Originally posted by Hollie Holland:
And yesterday I was playing a Korfballmatch/game and I was chatting a bit about the weather and if we would get soaked this time. (of course we got soaked its a septembernight in Holland what was I thinking )Korfball is a mixed game, per team 4 guys and 4 girls, plus reserves and out of the blue some fairly hot guys from the other team totally checked me out!

I was a bit startled by it. Not that no one ever checks me out but, the clear eye-contact from one -hot! - guy in particular was pretty new to me so I looked away. (plus I'm in a relationship, I have to look away. But it felt great so I now feel a bit guilty, I shouldn't react to another guys look. Right?) So I was wondering what changed? Are men always checking me out and I never really noticed before, but I do now I'm on the diet, is it just a coincedence, or do they... sense things? I think I ovulated yesterday but they can't subconciously know that? Can they?

To some degree guys may subcounciously (or not so subconciously) pick up on that. When women are ovulating they tend to dress in brighter colors and wear less, and they also become a bit more aggressive and a bit more interested in sex and the opposite sex. From my experiences and also what I've read they will hold more eye contact.

On the diet you are probably more confident, or more sexual / attractive feeling. When you are more attractive and confident to your self you show that to others. That translates into showing more interest in the guys and they pick up on that. You also may feel happier, more spontaneous, chattier, friendlier, and alive. I love women like that, and they are very attractive to me when they are like that.

Ladies keep in mind too that it is a two way street. Guys have ups and downs in how they feel - how attractive, how energetic, how sexually driven. I know sometimes I go to clubs and there are times no one really talks to me and other times women hit on me. There are also times when I feel like I don't want to talk or make the effort, and other times when I am very friendly and find it very easy to meet the opposite sex. Of course a lot of it has to do with how tired I am at the time. Still though, the right look from the right lady can certainly energize.

Hi Oh!!,

If everything goes right I'm getting a bloodpressuretest today! So I guess after that I'll know more. (I hate bloodtests! The doctor(s) always has to lay me down first or I will faint. Even when I lay down I'll get lightheaded. And that only after one or more tubes! Hahaha, as a child I used to faint because I was watching the blood filling the tube. 'Mommy... is that mine?' wiiiiiii) My biggest after-pill problem now is the moodyness and the insomnia.

Yeah, the happy, chatty and alive feeling dissapeard a few days after ovulation. Then I went back to my grey progesteron-self. Unfortunatelly I'm persuing a natural birthcontrolmethod. And guess when your alowed to have sex again... indeed, after the happydays. But even in my grey-days I feel more like having sex than before. So were gradually improving here...

Titania -
I'm so glad to hear from other people who have had problems with the pill. I'm not on the diet yet, but I bought the book because for my whole life, I've had a low or erratic or virtually nonexistent libido. The problem is, I've also been on and off different SSRIs since I was 14 and the birth control pill since I was 18. I never had a chance to figure out what I was like without anything, and I didn't put together the medications and the low libido until recently - I just thought it was me.
The last time I tried going on the pill was a few months ago. I went on a very low dose pill, and very very quickly, I realized I didn't need the pill because I had absolutely no desire to do anything sexual at all. I stayed on it for a month, decided I could not wait any longer to see if the side effects would wear off, and went off it - within a few weeks, my libido was back. As I've gotten older (into my late 20s), more and more of my friends have realized that hormonal birth control causes horrible side effects for them - mood swings, depression, lack of libido - and none of us realized this when we were younger. I honestly think the % of women who have bad reactions to hormonal birth control is much higher than estimated, simply because a lot of us don't connect our symptoms with the pill, especially if we're on it long-term. I always thought that my libido was dropping off due to problems in my relationships (and of course, with no interest in anything sexual, those problems were always exacerbated) or due to pressure from the guys I was dating (given our ages, this happened a lot and I didn't know enough to avoid it). My other friends thought they were just emotional, or depressed for other reasons, etc.
My big problem now is that I am horribly uncomfortable with the idea of sex with only one for of birth control (condoms), but I've read that spermicide can make the condom less effective, and I don't know what my other options are. I'm not willing to consider an IUD because I want children someday and they seem to have lots of potential side effects, so I guess I'm left with a cervical cap or a diaphragm?
Anyway, I'm rambling - am just very unsatisfied with birth control options, with the pressure on women to go on the pill (lots of guys seem to think a woman who refuses to take the pill is just being difficult, overreacting, or has other motives for not taking it), with the fact that these side effects have not been addressed (what guy would take a birth control pill that left him with no libido?), with the general lack of research into or attention given to women's sexual challenges (birth control, female sexual dysfunction, etc), etc.

Anyway, now that I've read the book, I'm once again reconsidering my self-concept regarding my libido. I've had periods of time when it seemed normal, but others when I could find no clear reason why it was so low - I've given up on SSRIs, which means I can't find a medication for my anxiety disorder (but exercise etc are of course critical anyway, so I just have to rely more heavily on them). However, I've also been a vegetarian since I was 10, so now I'm really looking at the soy issue. I wish I'd known this could be contributing to my problems years ago.
Anyway I'm rambling - just really happy the problems many of us have with the pill is getting more attention.
Steph

Some condoms have spermicide. The only risk of using other spermicide with a condom is the likelihood that the couple might skip the condom. That of course is a high risk activity.

I'd recommend a condom together with diaphragm (or cervical cap) with spermicide.

I've read that the WHO found that condoms w/ spermicide don't provide additional pregnancy prevention benefits and caused some problems (UTIs, shorter shelf life). Because of this, Planned Parenthood doesn't give out spermicidally lubricated condoms anymore.
The problem with spermicide otherwise is that all spermicide in the US relies on Nonoxynol-9, which can increase chances of catching STDs (HIV, HPV) (this isn't a big concern for me, since I only have one partner at a time and we both get tested first, but HPV especially is just rampant in the US and I'm too old to be covered by my health insurance for the vaccine), cause UTIs, and I had read that it might increase incidences of condom breakage. That last part might have later been concluded to be untrue or only true in certain circumstances, in which case I'll go back to that as my go-to second method of birth control - will be doing some research on it again tonight.

Of course a condom prelubricated with Nonoxynol-9 is better than no condom, but from what I've read, a condom without it is even better than that, both as birth control and as protection against STDs.

I feel like I should be finding sources for this stuff, but you can probably get the WHO and Planned Parenthood stuff easily by Googling.

Hi Steph,

Same I had here! Real spermacides aren't even available in my country anymore due to too much inflammation problems it seems.

After reading The Orgasmic Diet and finding out some nasty nasty stuff about my birthcontrolpill, I wanted to quit. But next I thought: "What then??" I went surfing over the internet too for a Pearl-index. A list of contraceptives available and their effectiveness. I found the WHO Pearl-index and I was pretty dissapointed. A cervical cap is a hopelessly dated method which is only 94% reliable in theory. In real life, userfailure is up to 20%. Thats right freakin' 1 in 5 women get pregnant every year using the cervical cap + spermacide method. Condoms are a bit more reliable and so at first I wanted to use both a condom and a cervical cap, plus a spermicide.

But I have really sensitive skin. The tissue in my mouth breaks down from most toothpastes and it gets painfully irritated. And thats only after two minutes! So a spermicide thats directly in contact with soft tissue and supposed to be held there for hours is asking for trouble. I was hesistant to try.

BUT, I knew a women is not fertile every single day. In fact- a women can only get pregnant during 18 hours about every 4 weeks. Add the absolute maximum life-span of sperm plus one day extra just in case you ovulate twice and you know your only fertile for 7 days a month tops! (you feel the irony about having to take a pill that makes you feel miserable every day?)

So why the heck are we always using condoms wheter were fertile or not? Its lack of knowledge. When you don't know for certain when a women ovulates- the method is useless. And thus no one is highschool is going to tell you otherwise than 'sex - condom = pregnant + STD'

But there is a way to know for sure when you ovulate. But you have to take your temperature every single morning and you have to look at your cervical fluids and chart it every day. If you think right now, 'thats not for me' then good luck with the cervical caps, condoms and spermicide. If your interested in a hardcore natural birthcontrolmethod with a pearl-index of 0,4 (thats right 99,6% reliable. The pill is 99,7%) and you want to be serious about it, read this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6375261.stm and if your after that still interested? Look into this great book; Taking Charge Of Your Fertility by Toni Weschler. It helped many women with either getting pregnant or avoiding it, and its a shame the knowledge about a women's body is practically kept a secret.

I use this method since coming off BCP's and I love the fact that it only costs a book and a thermometer, I trust it beyond doubt because I now KNOW when I'm infertile. And I really like the idea that now I'm never going to have sex using only a piece of latex to protect me from having children on the day I'm ovulating.

Good luck finding your solution!

Hollie -
Thanks so much for the link and the book recommendation! I don't know if I'm reliable enough for that method, but the more I think about it, the more I think that this is information I'm going to want to have about myself at some point anyway, so I'm going to look into it and see. In the meantime, I'll probably be relying on condoms & some type of separate spermicide and might ask my gynocologist about a diaphragm. It would be great to know when my body is doing what, though - it seems crazy that most women don't even know how to figure this information out.
Thanks!
Steph

Just to be clear, when I said spermicide with diaphragm, I meant the spermicide goes IN the diaphragm, so it wouldn't be coming in contact with the condom.

Of course if it irritates your skin, that's a problem, but that issue doesn't impact pregnancy prevention.

There really is no easy solution here.

That does clarify things, thanks - I didn't catch the "with diaphragm" part, so I was thinking just spermicide plus condom, which is what I've done in the past, but had been worried about.
I agree, all the solutions have problems - it seems to just be a question of which problems fit best for each person.
Honestly, though, I am just extremely frustrated with the whole thing. It seems like medicine just came up with the hormonal pills and then stopped trying to do anything else - every new pill seems like a new variation on the same thing, and that thing causes tons of side effects - all of which, of course, are difficult to study and easy to explain away, so women are left with either living with the side effects or choosing among essentially the same options our mothers had.
Oh well.